Pepp inför London Whisky Show: intervju med Dawn Davies!

Om bara några veckor är det återigen dags för The Whisky Exchange Whisky Show i London (eller bara ”London Whisky Show” som jag har hört de flesta kalla den) – Whiskymässornas Whiskymässa! I år styr jag kosan dit för andra året i rad, men jag kan inte låta bli att transkribera en intervju jag fick göra på plats sist jag var där. Den använde jag delar av i en artikel för tidningen Allt Om Whisky, men Dawn Davies (Master of Wine och Head byer för The Whisky Exchange) är liksom för skön och rättfram för att jag inte ska dela med mig av hela alltet. Håll till godo!

The first question is really about the future plans for this fair because you have changed management, as I understand it.

You know, I said to all the exhibitors before we opened the hall, “yes, there’s been a change of guard but the principles still stay the same. We want great whiskey for the great people in an amazing way.” And for me that will never change, I think it’s super important. Yes, Raj and Sukhinder are leaving but they’re leaving behind a team that they built that are probably more passionate about the business than they are. I say it’s my baby. It’s Billy’s baby, my team’s baby. We’re all hugely passionate about what we’ve built because we were as much a part of that building as they were, so  we are as invested in what’s happening in this business and The Whisky Show for me like a labour of love. It’s Immensely popular as well. It’s incredible. Obviously, the one thing we’re probably going to have to change is new space. We’re really lucky. I think we were one of the first, we’re one of the best. I think it’s amazing, going out there and really showing how it’s done. But I think what we have is really lovely, loyal customers. And I’m really thankful for the people that we have. And also, I’m really excited to bring new people in. Actually, we were talking last night and you’re like; “why don’t we do an introduction to whiskey fair? It’s cheaper. Tickets to come in. You have basic stuff. But you have to be great.” So that idea might happen. You know, like that’s a great idea. I think we want to lead the way, we want to keep showing how passionate we are about whisky, about everybody. And it keeps it a bit more down to earth as well. I want you to come here and taste some of the best drams you’ll ever taste, but I think we want more people in whisky. It’s so important to me, you know, as someone that’s super passionate about the community and the products and I think that’s the next step. We’re always thinking, we’re always learning; we’re always coming up with stupid ideas and some work, some don’t. But that’s the beauty of it.                                           

Speaking of getting new people into this – What are the key factors in getting more women and non-binary people involved in and included in this industry?

I think the fact that it’s a woman that’s having a whisky show, it’s a woman that’s the head of buying for the whisky show. The fact that one of our directors is a woman. We have a really equal balance between men and women. It’s really important for us to ensure that. I think we talk too much about the negatives. I actually think the way we’re going to change is through working together and educating and bringing people up into the industry. It’s really important that on my buying team, I have two assistants who aren’t buyers yet and they’re two women, and one of them’s from India, the other is from Ukraine. I have a Polish/Nepalese man on my team who’s my #2, who’s upstairs. He’s Incredible and I think for us it’s so important to to kind of show physically that women can achieve and do things that any man can do. But I think for me, what’s really important is actually working with the amazing men that I have. Actually, 95% of men are incredible. We should be heroing them and showing them as an example, rather than pulling people down because that’s what happened to us for centuries, so if we follow the same path as what happened to women that’s not going to change the world. What is going to change the world is us working with people and changing opinions and showing people buying what we physically and mentally can do. It’s bringing the people up that show promise and challenges and giving them the opportunity. That’s why we do a lot of mentoring, why we kind of try and talk to many people. Actually, I think this sort of shows the beginners a way of doing that, to talk to people. But maybe they’re a little afraid to go in. I think it’s something you know is daunting. I don’t think it’s a difference if you’re a male or a female – it’s daunting. Sometimes you’ve got to make it more accessible, making it kind of understandable. When I go into classes or I talk to people that don’t really necessarily know whisky, I’m like: “Do you Llike wine?” And they’re like, “yeah”, and I say “then I can find you a whisky” because it’s about finding what the person likes and unlocking their palette and changing their opinion. 

So yeah, for me it’s about positivity. I think it is projecting negativity around this whole thing at the moment, and I think it’s very toxic and it’s not the way we’re going to change the world. I was one of the first female sommeliers in the UK, and now there’s hundreds of us. I’m one of the first female buyers and now there are hundreds of us. Being a woman in whisky is not all doom and gloom. There’s so much positivity. Actually, I wish I had the picture of… Ask Lizzie for the picture. It’s incredible (se: bild). I asked all the women in this show to come and have a photo of us together. Oh, I was shocked by how many women that came. The picture is incredible. I mean, we’re like four rows deep and there’s love in that picture.  One of the guys took it. I think for me that message is really showing: “Look, there are a lot of women in whisky. If you wanna come to whiskey, you’ve got all of us here” and it’s getting the brands to bring people. We try to have diverse people, Master blenders and distillers. I can’t put them on a panel, so all of us have to work together.  Every year I see more women in this show. And I think many of the brands are getting much closer as well, because there is money in it as well. Who’s the future drinker? Who’s the people that buy? In wine, women buy something like 90% of the wine because they’re in supermarkets, they’re doing the weekly shopping. So, think about who is the purchaser. I mean the majority are often women, so we should be talking to them, but we need to find out how to talk to them. That’s about engaging them through knowing what they like. Like making it just more open and more available. I think showing people and all that is really important, but it’s got to be done in a positive way, not a negative way. 

I read that you once stated, if I’m quoting you correctly, that “Scotch whiskey cannot rest on its laurels and must be able to speak to young consumers”. Have you seen more young consumers here at The Whisky Show? How has that changed over the years? 

Yeah,  I did say that and a lot of very outrageous things. But you know, every year we see new people. The reason we wanted to do Friday at a slightly cheaper price was to encourage that slightly younger consumer and to encourage people that maybe are sort of starting to go into this. Yes, we have old school customers and I never want to lose them because they’re amazing, but I need new customers because you can’t grow with just your original. So for us it was like doing experiential things, trying to push the brands to do maybe some cocktails on their stands. And yes, that’s me doing whisky and popcorn. But that’s great. You know, one of the whiskies I’ve decided to do and I pulled it at the last minute was a 20 yo 1991 Lagavulin with popcorn. Because I want to say: “Don’t be fucking snobby about the whisky”. I came from wine. We have enough snobbery in the wine industry. We don’t need it in the whisky industry. 

It’s about these kinds of things where we challenge the brands and you know I think the brands realise it too. You look at the guys doing some of the world of flavours, they’re super simple. It’s easy to see, it’s about new consumers. We’re seeing a lot of new kinds of progress, like people like yourself who are young. You’re not just sitting on your behind. People like that, we’re working, reaching out to them in different ways and social media and just the way we’re talking again and doing this Introduction To The Whisky Show is again another way. I think it’s up to us to push the boundaries. So we are the game changers. I always say we never want to be trend followers. We want to be trend creators and that’s so important. So we’re also seeing a lot of interest in world whisky. I think that’s super exciting for me. I think New Zealand could show a lot of potential.

What trends are you seeing right now?

Very, very interesting! I think America’s really exciting right now, because they’ve got a lot of signals coming through now and screaming. A lot of really good stuff. And Jeptha Creed Distillery, go up and try them and try McKenzie Whiskey on our stand. One of the things I’d like to challenge is actually “is 3 years too old for a lot of bourbon whiskies?”. I’m doing a talk on it tomorrow. There’s things like that I want to challenge, you know? Is it right to impose on Texas that three years is right? I have a whiskey from Del Bac, which tells me no, it’s not, but it can’t be a whiskey. We need to challenge those things so we can have more diversity. This is about flavours at the end of the day. It’s about flavour and balance, and if three years is not right for balance, then why are we imposing it on a country. You don’t say to the wrong guys: “you’ve got to wait three years for your rum”. Because if you’re in the Caribbean Well, why are these hot countries penalised by something that we decided? Let’s be provocative. Put in a little bit of provocation. For me, it’s so exciting, those kinds of conversations. And also, I think there’s a lot more people playing around with different heritage brands. Like there’s a lot of Irish stuff coming online that are playing with heritage and challenging the idea of pot still and what it should be according to some of the bigger boys. I probably should say that they now belong to one of the bigger ones. Touchy subject. Yeah, well, I think we should be challenging stuff like that and I think that’s where we should be breaking boundaries and looking at it but looking at it from a way that makes whiskey taste better. 

You know what I think is still awful? This fucking wine cask ageing and as you’re using the right fucking wine, you know. Things like that are important. But there’s a lot of interesting things happening globally that excites me now. Like France is on fire, New Zealand’s on fire. I’m excited to see what’s coming up. I mean, it’s like nom, nom, nom. It’s just changing perception, isn’t it? I think that’s changing, like, let’s break out of it, but still hold on to the heritage because that’s also very important. It doesn’t have to be one without the other. They can live together. We have this trend but they can work together and that’s important, that kind of harmony. But yeah, for me it’s so exciting to be in places like this where you’re seeing change. The UK is fairly resilient when it comes to beer, not much more to say about. I think people are drinking more sensibly, but I don’t think you’ve entered their ability to love and drink. I do think people are generally probably more aware of what they drink. 

When I interview different people in the industry, they usually have a favourite or pet theory that for example either wood is the most important thing or the barley type, or stills or… You get what I mean, right? What’s your opinion?

Mine is yeast, I mean, I know this very well from a wine perspective. Without yeast you have no flavour in the beginning. Think about it – what you have in your fresh fermentation is what is elevated through your fermentation times. Now the more flavour you can get out of that initial fermentation, the more character you’ll get. That character can then take on more interesting wood notes. Look, it’s not the most important thing, everything is a combination, of course. But you know, I think yeast is so important and I think we don’t talk enough about it. Whisky has no fucking terroir. It has a sense of place, which is all about the people that make it where it comes from. Sorry, I don’t give a shit about who you are, but I think what is important is that we talk a lot about wood but we don’t talk about the oxidising of the alcohols, which for me is probably the most interesting part of the maturation process because if you’re oxidising all those flavours you’ve got this amazing interesting character coming through. Wood can sit on top of a whisky and destroy it. So yeah, wood is important, but the right wood, the right sourcing of the wood, the provenance of that oak, the provenance of the wine house, the provenance of the sherry, the province of the sherry house et.c. And refilled sherry casks;  Whatever, we refilled – no – “sherry seasoned” a cask with a non-sherry product and I think it’s about all of those ingredients. But yes – it starts with yeast for me and it ends with yeast. Yeast is incredible. If I could, I would become a little yeast cell, I would.

I was curious about knowing more about your thoughts on wine cask matured whiskeys, since you are an expert on both whisky and wine.

I think the problem is that not enough distillers understand wine. Buying the wine cask from somewhere doesn’t necessarily mean good wine went in it. Was it made by a good tonnelier (franska för tunnbindare) or a good propriétaire (ägare)? Because if not, you put your liquid into a substandard barrel. There’s a lot of shitty wine out there, and the people giving their casks away are probably not giving away the greatest stuff to keep their costs a bit in mind. So I think the more the sellers can understand this, the better. And I have to call out people like Richard Patterson who actually asks; “have you guys thought… have you heard about this?… I’m looking for this… How are these guys?”  And I think that’s why maybe some of the guys from New Zealand are doing interesting things because they’re in those areas where there’s wine. Starward, they’re in an area where wine is produced. So there’s a bigger understanding there and I think they understand that. I think distillers need to have a better understanding of what wine that went into the casks and also the effects of it. If you have a very tannic wine and you put whisky into it, you’re going to have a more tannic whisky. So use more of those New World wines and use some of those wine grape varieties. Use soft wine because you don’t want the tannins, you want the flavour. 

And I think for me there’s a lot of luck with understanding about wine. And sometimes, or at least wine matured whisky in Sweden, tends to be of varieties that Swedish people recognise, so it’s not New World wines. It’s like a Rioja or a Bordeaux, you know, it’s those types of wine, like Pinot Noir or something people can recognise; “I like that wine, obviously I like that whisky”. But should it be about the wine or should it be about the right wine for the whisky? Sometimes it also shouldn’t be about marketing. It feels like the producers are seeing this wine tasting as a way to cut costs but also create something fresh and I think it’s a lot of marketing bullshit. I blame marketing for a lot of problems. When they say “OK, orange wines are trendy. We need to age everything in orange wine”, It’s not the stuff made with oranges that’s trendy – just as an FYI. That’s why I fundamentally believe that you should be making the best thing for the liquid you have from the beginning. It’s not about “ohh Bordeaux sounds sexy, my Bordeaux’s expensive. It’s fresh, it’s strange, it has to be good.”

Last question: Lonely island drink – what would it be and why?

Then it would have to be a rum. And if your rum is from Haiti, a Clairin which is an unaged Agricole style, so sugar cane juice based rum. And the exact rum would be a one from a guy called Michel Sajous. That is my lonely island drink and I would make it about that drink so that people would migrate! There is something wild and fresh and vibrant I love. I think for me, when I taste a liquid I get excited about it’s because the liquid itself has a vibrancy or vitality to it, and I think there’s something about Clairin that is so fresh and it’s so pure. It speaks about the land and the people and the history of Haiti and everything. And, for me, it’s something that’s really important. It’s really, really important to kind of have that excitement on your palette and to just taste something delicious. You know, I just want to taste good shit. Life’s too short to drink shit, that’s for sure.